Comments on Women of Mystery: Stud Fiction. Never Touch the Stuff.

"Dick" and "prick" are both highly negative terms ...

2007-07-17T21:48:00.000-04:00

"Dick" and "prick" are both highly negative terms for males, as well as slang for their anatomy. "Chick", while diminutive, is not derogatory, not anatomical.

In essence, those suggested terms are equivalent to "t__t lit" or "c__t lit", or perhaps "b__ch lit". Don't think you want to go there.

Reid, your version is a major improvement. Laura,...

2007-07-11T17:52:00.000-04:00

Reid, your version is a major improvement.

Laura, you're absolutely right, I just checked out a couple of publisher catalogs and don't see the labels used at all. It's perhaps distributors doing women this disservice. Somehow the books end up in women's lit sections in bookstores.

LOL, Reid!! I want to see the movie they make out...

2007-07-11T17:24:00.000-04:00

LOL, Reid!! I want to see the movie they make out of that. Though, I disagree with you just a bit. I think it needs to take place in the old west.

Hmmm...good thought, Lois. But I am not sure the ...

2007-07-11T17:21:00.000-04:00

Hmmm...good thought, Lois. But I am not sure the publishers have anything to do with it. I mean, you don't see "chick lit" or even "cozy" on the spines of books. You see "romance" or "mystery" or sometimes just "fiction."

Hmmm...

I'm not sure what the discussion here is, I love c...

2007-07-11T17:14:00.000-04:00

I'm not sure what the discussion here is, I love chick lit and movies. However, I think The Bridges of Madison County would have been a much better book (and movie) if Robert Kincaid had come to town and had to fight Francesca's husband to the death to win her love.

When he fell in battle, his internal organs would of course be replaced by cybernetic parts, leading to a climactic third act battle between the two on the Golden Gate Bridge. Robo-Kincaid would dodge fire from oncoming fighter jets and finish her husband with a flashbulb to the eyes, followed by a thousand rounds from a shoulder-mounted gatling gun.

I the final pages, Kincaid is healed through a secret code found by examining DaVinci's grocery lists.

Just a couple of minor tweaks, of course, but a great book otherwise.

Clare, on the genre issue, I had a dream the other...

2007-07-11T16:21:00.000-04:00

Clare, on the genre issue, I had a dream the other night...the dream image for my novel was a huge weaving (yes, like Penelope). Some guy called it a wool scarf and seemed to think I was being overly dramatic when I complained about having to unravel it to reweave a huge part of it! He scoffed that I seemed to think the book was exceptionally fine work. (Weaving = Novel. Wool scarf = Genre Novel. Exceptionally Fine Work = War and Peace.)

Do we just give up on trying to change derogatory labels?

Did the term "chick lit" start out as demeaning? I...

2007-07-11T13:49:00.000-04:00

Did the term "chick lit" start out as demeaning? I didn't get that sense at the time. I assumed (I know-I know) that it referred to a sort of coming-of-age type of novel with a female protagonist. And that it was a very hot genre, at least for a while.

When advertisers and other hucksters get a hold of a catch-phrase it often morphs into something it was never meant to be originally.

Personally, I wouldn't be offended at the term dick-flicks or prick-lit. I think they're clever and amusing and I suspect I know exactly which types of movies and books could be categorized that way.

However, if I wrote a book that I didn't believe SHOULD be categorized in that manner and found that others were doing so - I'd be ticked.

I was actually having a similar conversation with ...

2007-07-11T13:42:00.000-04:00

I was actually having a similar conversation with my local writers group (all men) about the curse of the word "genre", as in, "it transcends genre". This is the highbrow way of saying a book definitely is a Mystery or Western or Historical Romance, but it's good anyway. Yeesh.

I always compare it to knowing a restaurant's Italian. Knowing that label doesn't tell me a thing about the quality of the chef or service, whether it'll be a serviceable meal or a memorable one. I check the menu posted like scanning the back cover for some idea whether it's what I want. It gives me a basic expectation, the premise as it were. And if the black linguine makes my heart sing, I'm unlikely to praise the chef by saying he's risen above Italian cooking. I'm more likely to say that he exemplifies the finest of his form, and what a joy that is in any style.

Anyway, on the chick lit thing and relating slightly to the post before it, though British publishers do identify a kind of navel-gazing 20's tale as "lad lit", I think publishers here use the covers to try to fend some readers off and attract others. And while the majority of books read (romances) and bought in every categories are by women, I doubt there'll be much traction in getting less separation, because it isn't a problem for the people doing business. The big difference is that men buy way more hardcovers and at full-price than women, which makes them desirable readers to grab. Gender-crossover hits spawn movies and TV and other profitable media entities whose viewership can be equally male or majority male. But with the strength of Oprah's Book Club et al, I bet (though you're not wrong, Lois) that many people don't see this labeling and pigeonholing as any problem worth addressing.

It definitely is for those of us trying to find and build our unique readerships.

this is a subject I ahve a vested interest in. As ...

2007-07-11T12:33:00.000-04:00

this is a subject I ahve a vested interest in. As a man writing "women's fiction" I ahve faced many roablocks.

When I pitch to agents I sometimes get eye rolls and yeah rights, especially since I am a rather large hairy man with a texas drawl.

And yes it is ahrd to write in a query. And for the reord I would rahter watch a chick flick that a plotless shoot em up.

All I'm asking, really, is that labels not be deme...

2007-07-11T10:47:00.000-04:00

All I'm asking, really, is that labels not be demeaning. That they more accurately convey tone and content, as you point out Laura, is equally important. Do ya think we could convince SinC-NY to bring up this subject at the Publishers Summit in September? I know they don't want whining and complaining. But it's a serious issue, in my opinion.

I think part of the reason there's not a catch-phr...

2007-07-11T10:35:00.000-04:00

I think part of the reason there's not a catch-phrase to describe for women what they don't want to read is that women are more willing to read a variety of texts than men are.

For example, I've heard plenty of men in the mystery section saying that they don't read books by female authors. I've *never* heard a woman say she doesn't read books by men. Likewise, I've met men who don't care for female protagonists. Never seen a woman who doesn't want to read about a male protagonist. Heck, even women who only read romances are just as interested in reading about the men's thoughts and feelings as about the women's.

"Women's fiction" doesn't do it, either, because that perpetuates the idea that it's fiction for women. I think you have to go more toward what, specifically it is. I mean, really, is it a thriller? A mystery? A family saga? A romance? An epic fantasy? It's not going to take more than one sentence into your hook for the agent/editor to know the protagonist is female.

Most "chick lit" could be as easily tagged with something starting with "lighthearted" or "humorous" or somthng similar. "My 80,000 mystery is a light-hearted look at the trials of a country girl whose first week in Manhattan is marred by the discovery of a body in a carpet" or something.

I mean, it's not as if "chick lit" is JUST about shoes, gay friends and shopping, right? There's something else going on, too, and that something else--be it mystery, romance, whatever--could just as easily be the focus if the genre went away.

I must admit, I find the whole "chick lit" thing an easy way to avoid reading some things I don't want to read. I'd have to work a bit harder to avoid that stuff if my bookstore didn't so conveniently stack it all together, but I could live with that.

(And why is it that "chick lit" tends to be published in trade paperback? If I were an avid reader of the genre I'd be seriously peeved that my books were so much more expensive than mass market paperbacks!)